Virtual Playtable Forum

> The new game mode is unfortunately similar to the magic workstation one, which I never liked.

How to make it better? What interface view or features do you expected for game module? Or may be examples of software where it's better.

Certain actions aren't obvious or they're just slow to do. For example say I want to make a player lose life, I need to "add damage" or "add life loss" (neither intuitive) and then make apply changes.

While that feature can be useful (even less now that damage is immediate), a simple "change life" with the old MWS options would be a lot more practical, or better yet, a lose life / gain life option that should just show a small edit box next to the player where you can quickly type the amount.

There are plenty of other gameplay "speedups" that can be done:

1. (Critical) There should be a toolbar with common useful actions:
1.1. Draw card.
1.2. Discard random card.
1.3. Replicate last action (adding counters, tokens, discard, draw, damage, etc.)
1.4. Shuffle.
1.5. Search library/graveyard/removed.
1.6. Throw dice (dice value should be an edit box, it shouldn't have to ask everytime)
1.7. Destroy/Remove/Top of library/Bottom of library "Targeted" (you know with the arrows)
1.8. Destroy/Remove/Top of library/Bottom of library "Selected" (your selected card)
1.9. Lose 1 point of life (much faster than right clicking and selecting the amount)
1.10. Gain 1 point of life
1.11. Reveal Hand

2. If you want, you can keep the "add damage" feature by adding an "apply" button that applies every change made

3. Enter should initiate chat mode.

4. Good to see it's easy to clear the arrows now, took me a while to see the button though (again, something to put on that toolbar)

5. (Critical) Automatic grid - lands should go on the bottom, tokens in the front (should stack after too many, if they're enchanted/equiped they shouldn't stack), creatures behind tokens (2 rows), planeswalkers should go to the upper right corner (from the owner p.o.v), enchantments and artifacts should be in a zone beneath the planeswalker. This should be configurable too, but not that important. Cards should be able to move between zones.

6. Instants and sorceries shouldn't go to the battlefield at all, there should be a specific zone for them (and for evoke cards, or other cards that die right after they enter the battlefield). The apply button or switching phases should send these cards to the graveyard.

6. (Critical) If I grab a card and put it on top of an enemies card (or even my own cards, needs playtesting), it should make an arrow, doing it again should do a stack. I personally don't need this but I got tired of my friends doing that to show they wanted to target... ("Hey, send me the card back!" -_-)

7. (Critical) Auto dice roll at the beginning of the match, should use some big values (like 100) and repeat in case of them being equal. If players have decided themselves who plays first they can just ignore it. The player who wins that dice roll should be made the first to play.

8. Some fast way to skip phases other than having to click them (like a single shortcut key), maybe then players will use them.

9. (Critical) When I pass the turn it shouldn't change the turn number, when the second player plays it's still the same turn (gives a much more accurate representation of how fast the game is going).

10. Selecting creatures and pressing "A" should make them go into "attack" mode (if they have vigilance they shouldn't tap, easy to check). There's no need to display blockers, should just be done with arrows.

11. This should be done with keys, but having buttons on the toolbar should make it easy for new users to learn: Some way to quickly add +1/+1 counters, -1/-1 counters, (less important) +1/+0 p/t, +0/+1 p/t, -1/-0 p/t, -0/-1 p/t. The creatures p/t should display the total. Using the +1/+1, -1/-1 buttons on a planeswalker should change their loyalty. The set properties window is just WAY too clunky, it's not going to be used.

12. A button to clear the p/t bonuses (and a right click option for counters).

13. A flip option for double faced cards or the kamigawa mirror cards (with right click). Should put some kind of glow on them or another detail

14. Copying a card should also be a fast action (important for tokens)

15. (Not very important) A better default theme.

Wow... that's a lot of stuff :p. I realize there would be a bit too many options to put on a toolbar, but it's a matter of prioritizing stuff, which will require testing.

Out of all of these, the critical ones are the only that I'd say that really need to be done.

The game mode is also a bit slow to render on my computer, which also happened with MWS (and my computer isn't weak at all). Hovering over a card also needs to show it's big image instantly.

Thank you, soon I finish implementing network code and will use your list to tune gameplay interface.

Nice ideas! Among those, I find the number 6 be something craving not for a "special" zone, but actually for a stack zone. All cards should go to such a zone actually, and on a second click go either to the grave (instants, sorceries) or the to play zone (all others).

Having a "red" zone for attacking creatures like happens in tournaments would be nice as well, but given that the space on screen is limited I wouldn't exceed. Still, a small stack zone would actually be very useful for a more clear play.

"I find the number 6 be something craving not for a "special" zone, but actually for a stack zone. All cards should go to such a zone actually, and on a second click go either to the grave (instants, sorceries) or the to play zone (all others)"

A better way to do it IMO (instead of an extra click, it's annoying to have to follow the card around) would be:
1. Have a zone in the middle of the screen, cards from both players go there, with a colored border to distinguish the owner.
2. After the card is placed there, the other player can either play a card, or press a button (or shortcut key) to clear the zone and place all the cards in the right area.

This makes it much easier to know when you can play, instead of asking constantly "do you answer?".

If he's not going to do anything he just needs to press space.
(There's no check to see which player can press space, it's just a shortcut to clear the zone, but it'd be a nice way to make things work)

Players can of course just drag and drop cards anywhere they want, this is also needed for cards with suspend and other such special cases. It's still a nice speedup.

You are right! Actually correct use of priority is something which is quite boring and not easily done with the current system. A stack + accept feature would actually speed up play, even if it requires an additional key press, cause of less waiting time and "ok?" shortcuts pressing.

I'm not sure if it's better a pop up or a fixed space dedicated to the stack.. in both cases, the stack should appear like the hand box, with just a difference: I think that to better recognize whose a card is, it's better to slightly place it towards one's players side rather (or in addition to) colouring it.

Also remember that the space "ok" shortcut should accept just the last spell, not the whole stack.

Technically, for a flawless implementation of the stack rules, both players should press space for a spell to resolve. This would allow someone to respond to his own spell before they resolve. And would also help managing complex stack situations, where for example one is going to respond to one of is own spells only after other top spells have resolved already. This however but slow things a bit too much.. I think it needs some actual testing to see which is better.

And given the above, I would also add a "put ability on stack" right click option on cards (all cards, not just those in play) to create a "pseudo-spell" automatically put on the stack, for cards like Grim Lavamancer, but also Ichorid or Paladin of Prahv, which generate abilities from zones different than the playfield.

"I'm not sure if it's better a pop up or a fixed space dedicated to the stack.. in both cases, the stack should appear like the hand box, with just a difference: I think that to better recognize whose a card is, it's better to slightly place it towards one's players side rather (or in addition to) colouring it."

A pop up would save precious space so it's probably the better option. As for placing them slightly to one's side, totally agree, something like:

[''''']
[__][''''']
.....[__]

"Technically, for a flawless implementation of the stack rules, both players should press space for a spell to resolve. This would allow someone to respond to his own spell before they resolve. And would also help managing complex stack situations, where for example one is going to respond to one of is own spells only after other top spells have resolved already. This however but slow things a bit too much.. I think it needs some actual testing to see which is better."

The last thing we want is to slow things down.
Best way I can up with to take care of the priority problem:
1. A player plays a spell (he's free to play more, but for simplicity)
2. The opponent either plays a spell, or "ok" (should be something super accessible like pressing crtl (easier on the fingers) or space and a having a big easy to target button on the toolbar for newbies)
3. If he pressed ok, the stack should "clear" completely (for speed), but this makes situations like a player playing a card in response to his own card impossible.
4. The only option is for the player to press ok too to clear the stack. It's only an "ok" to the last card, but all the other cards had to be "oked" too so it's not a problem.

This is a bit too slow for my tastes... I think a good solution would be to have a player have to hold a key while playing the card if he intends to answer it with his own spell (without the opponent playing anything).
Otherwise just do an "auto-ok" to speed things up. An "auto-ok" is far more common than a self-answer.

It's a bit problematic for newbies to learn, but it's also something that they'll almost surely not use :p.

"And given the above, I would also add a "put ability on stack" right click option on cards (all cards, not just those in play) to create a "pseudo-spell" automatically put on the stack, for cards like Grim Lavamancer, but also Ichorid or Paladin of Prahv, which generate abilities from zones different than the playfield."

It's something too common for right click. Needs an alternative means. If the card has an ability that targets it's easy, just drag and drop it to the "target" (maybe with a right click since creatures are troublesome due to blocking...)

If it's an ability that affects every "something" on the field, or does something that has no target, maybe crtl + double click on the card? I don't know... It's troublesome.

The pseudo spell from a card can be achieved through a context menu option or through an hotkey.. maybe add central mouse click too? That should be more than enough!

A pop up seems a more reasonable solution, but doesn't allow drag-and-drop (since there is not space to drop the card to).. unless... got an idea:

--------------------
|A|
|-|
| |
| |
|-|
|S|-------------------
|-|
| |
| |
|-|
|B|
---------------------

..there is a good amount of unused space on the left side of the field, in the column dedicated to players' avatars and decks.. just put a "stack" icon on the left side, which will grow to the right to fit possible new spells/ability as they are cast (keeping cards from the two players slightly tilted depending on the owner, as said before). The growing part can partially cover the turn phase icons, but that's not a problem, since you can't change phase as long as there are abilities on the stack.



As for the stack resolution: I'm absolutely against a feature that completely empties the stack in one shot.. it can be used by one player when the other wants to do stack tricks, and rebuilding the stack to accomplish that would be a mess.

We could also opt for the "ok" feature to be not a obligatory as we thought in the beginning. Just a sort of simplified "ok?" "ok!" pattern:

1 - Player A double clicks a spell in hand (or drag it to the Stack icon), and the card is automatically put on the stack. If player A is quick, he can easily put two cards on the stack before Player B can do the following

2 - Player B sees an "Ok? Press space" red icon in the stack window. He can either decide to click space or cast a spell/ability of his own

3a - If Player B has pressed space, Player A now sees an "ok!" green icon, and knows he can resolve the spell: he clicks(or double clicks?) the card, and it's automatically put in the graveyard/playfield (depending on card type); it can also be drag&dropped elsewhere if needed (some cards can go to the deck, hand or RFG zone on resolution sometimes).

3b - If Player B has cast a spell of his own instead, it's now Player A's turn to follow the point 2) of this list

4 - Once the top spell of the stack resolves, the "ok" icon turns from green back to red, as another acceptance is needed, and possibly by both players too

5 - Only the owner of the spell can decide to "resolve" his spell



To sum this up:

- Stack window should have two buttons, one for each player. These buttons are "red ok?" / "green ok!" switches, and you can cycle among the two states either by clicking them or by pressing space

- Those icons revert to red state as soon as the stack state changes (either a card is added or has resolved or has been dragged away)

- Players do not depend of those icons, they can choose to play without them and do things quickly, or wait for the opponent's permission before resolving spells

- Players may also decide to use this switch after they have cast their own spells, to specifically describe they do not want to cast anything in response to their own spell. This however won't probably be used very much



The underlining idea is to not force players to do excessive clicks, but to allow them to do things in a more clear and understandable way IF they want to. In that case, now, in MWS, they have to click little chat icons, which isn't very nice. Instead with this system, they would just need to press space, and the "ok?" command would be implicit as the interface would do that on its own.

In 2007 I tried to implement stack zone for MWSPlay.
http://virtualplaytable.com/other/mwsplaytable096beta2.png
(http://virtualplaytable.com/other/mwsplaytable096beta2.zip)
It was too slow and buggy (I used Delphi and tried to create my own graphics engine) and then I migrate to C++/Qt and start new deck editor and play client from scratch.

By the way, card image and chat panel is better on left as in MWSPlay or on right as in VPT ?
Compare:
http://virtualplaytable.com/other/mwsplaytable096beta2.png
http://virtualplaytable.com/gameplay.png

So do you plan to try and implement it again here in VPT? I don't think there's anything inherently problematic with the stack concept, apart from finding a smart way to avoid making it too clunky. I think that the best way is following the "virtual play table" approach by its very name: you don't force stack implementation: just give the players an handy stack and a simple way to tell the opponent he passes priority (the ok buttons), so that players can either ignore most of it or use it at their own pleasure.

As for card image and chat panel: I don't think it exists a strictly better answer.. it's just too user-dependent .. couldn't you just put that as an option?

> So do you plan to try and implement it again here in VPT?

Yes, I'm reading your messages and thinking about this feature.
I don't discuss it here with you only because writing my thoughts in english is not easy for me and required a lot of time.

Good to know :)

I think that a simple restyling and inner reimplementation of VPT from MWS's "ashes" could not be enough to convince people to switch. Some other softwares have been released in these years, and we need some very nice innovation to be able to attract and get those people back ;)

Your stack idea is certainly good Malhavoc, but the main reason I wanted the simplified but more "mandatory" (it would never be 100% mandatory since you could just place the card anywhere) stack was so that people used it by default.

I don't think I've had a casual game in MWS where people actually bothered with it, and they didn't bother too much with phases either. And if people don't use it, it may just as well not be there.

Using those features needs to make players life's easier, otherwise they won't use them. If you make it super accurate you'll have the same problem that automated rules checkers have without having their main advantage.

Remember, complex stack tricks are the exception, not the rule. The interface should reflect that as much as possible.

"As for the stack resolution: I'm absolutely against a feature that completely empties the stack in one shot.. it can be used by one player when the other wants to do stack tricks, and rebuilding the stack to accomplish that would be a mess."

They wouldn't be able to do that since it takes both players to agree for the stack to clear. However there is the extreme case of playing a card after the stack has started emptying, that's an extremely rare situation that should NOT be taken into account for normal usage, it just adds a huge layer of complexity.

There needs to be a way to do it though. Both players could simply mark the cards they want the stack to stop clearing at before pressing the "ok" button for example.

It's more "complex" than your solution, but only for this case. Players who would use that kind of stack trickery should be able to do it with no problem. And newbies don't have to worry about it nor about "oking" everything twice.

It's true that stack tricks are not so common, but at least in Vintage (and I'm saying that as I'm mainly a Vintage player) there are not so rare either. It's ok to them not being targeted as the default behaviour, but they need not to be too clumsy either when they happen.

You are right that when something isn't forced, it's often neglected by players: it's true that people online usually don't use phases and are sometimes bothered by my "ok?" chatting. Usually they ask for permission just when it's considered relevant.

On the other hand, there's a reason why they don't use phases for example: it is too much of an effort.. a full turn would require a good amount of clicks to be followed correctly (I do that personally, but I'm the exception). But you can't either force them too, or they would avoid the application completely, out of boredom.

Yeah... vintage is a bit... crazy ;).

Phases are a similar problem, you need to make it so using makes the players life easier. A lot of players already use the untap and draw phases because they untap and draw :p.

Having to double click them however is very annoying. Just pressing a next phase button or key would be much better. But then there's the issue of cards that prevent you from untaping and drawing. So those need to be detached from the phase jumping... It's a problem.

There's always the option of just selecting phases with the mouse in those cases, so it's not too bad.

Yay for necro'ing threads!

I figured I'd add to this one, instead of starting my own.

What I'd like to see:
Playing cards that buff other cards, actually affecting said cards. For example, dropping Bad Moon, and every black creature on the board gets buffed by +1/+1. Remove Bad Moon, and the +1/+1 goes away. I already like how convenient you've made it for quickly editing your creatures for things like this, but having it automated would be a godsend. I can certainly understand what a monumental undertaking this would be, as there are so many stipulations to buff cards. Only a specific color, only a specific creature time, only under certain conditions...which, again, is one of the reasons it would be nice for this to be automatic, so we don't have to keep track of it!

Ability to 'test' up to 4 decks in one session. I am a heavy EDH player, and as such, I'd like to be able to test multiple decks at once. EDH decks, for example, are not really (at least typically) made for one-on-one testing. They're multiplayer decks, and need to be tested in a multiplayer environment. I used to do this on MWS by opening two testing sessions, two decks in each. But it was cumbersome, and hard to keep track of. It would be really nice to have four decks in one testing session, or at least SOME way to test more than two decks at once.

It would also be nice to have a full screen's worth of space to play on; giving us the option of boosting the playable area to a screen size of, say, 1920x1080 would be amazing. I tend to play long games, and get a LOT of stuff on the board, and on such a tiny screen, it gets really cluttered.

I mentioned this in the other thread I started. It's nice that we can currently create other groups in the Deck Editor. However, it's very cumbersome to work with. I'm sure this is a feature you plan on updating in the future. But, at least to me, certain groups should already be in place: Most notably Artifacts, Enchantments, and Planeswalkers. Having just one generic 'spells' category is very broad, and doesn't really help sort out the deck very well.
I think, at least with the current system, the best way would be so that once we create the groups, the cards auto-sort into their own categories. Currently, lands and creatures already do this, I don't see how it would be too hard to make the other card types do the same. I think leaving instants and sorceries under 'spells' would be fine, as that is indeed what they are.

Also, having access to the sideboard during gameplay would be nice. In EDH, you have a General (or Commander as I guess they're called now) and in MWS, people typically stick their General into their sideboard for easy access, instead of having to search through your deck for it every time you start a new game. Also, currently, there is a box of space in the bottom and top right corners. This space could be used as the General zone