Virtual Playtable Forum

Seems fair. It's basically a simplified MWS at the moment, which is good and bad at the same time:

- good cause players feel comfortable with the old interface

- bad because it looks "old" and doesn't seem to provide extra benefits (but we're still in the beginning, so this may be fixed later)

A nicer visual theme would help, anyway.

Technically speaking, I've noticed cards do not "fit" into an invisible grid anymore. Is this wanted? It makes arranging cards a bit more difficult.. I can even place a card in-between the table and my hand.

> cards do not "fit" into an invisible grid anymore.

It's fit, but grid step now 3-4 pixels only (5% from card width, depends from window size). Later I will add cards autoalignment when you drag them close to other, it will be intuitive.

> I can even place a card in-between the table and my hand.

Wil be fixed later.

> doesn't seem to provide extra benefits

What extra benefits you mean?
At first I want implement same as MWSPlay, then I will work on other features like stack, some automation and in future rules enforcement.

>What extra benefits you mean?
>At first I want implement same as MWSPlay, then I will work on other features like
>stack, some automation and in future rules enforcement.

Exacty something like that :)

What I meant is that users need something "flashy" to convince themselves to upgrade from MWS to the new software. Even if the application will surely have very good things like game state, replays, a better library, a more stable connection, and so on.. most of the people will just be attracted by a "stylish" interface, something which does not look like a program made 10 years ago (MWS). Of course there's time for this, just saying.

What do you think, card type symbol is helpful on small cards in play or it is not necessary and clean small card is better?
See this screensot:
http://virtualplaytable.com/download/vpt04preview2.png

Hmm.. interesting option. Usually, in constructed formats at least, people know their cards, and that shouldn't be needed, especially when someone has card images.

Despite that, I could find it nice when playing draft (especially for cards in hand, where I have instants and sorceries too).

I'd suggest to put an option for it, so that a user can customize it to his taste. Default on.

Btw, the casting cost for cards in hand is also nice, but I'd put an option for that too since we are talking about that.

May be show them with Alt key press and hide when Alt released.

I like the symbols, i defintly think there should be such an option :), and the Alt key would be good to have it on, though i think i would play with them on always if there where such an option :)

if youre going with the symbols idea, than maybe you should have the symbols for first strike, flying, deathtouch... like duels of the planeswalkers

also i agree with something "flashier". the database screen looks great.. but the gameplay looks just like MWS and is indeed old. i dont know exactly where to go from there.. just something new and fresh :p

> maybe you should have the symbols for first strike, flying, deathtouch...

It's hard to correctly show them without rules enforcement.

Download link in first post changed to "vpt04preview2.zip"
Added:
-User chat text edit and buttons
-Showing on small cards P/T, Damage, Note, Cost and Type symbols

Alt / Ctrl key press should already be taken for quick things like adding damage and such (like now in MWS). On the other hand, hotkeys for displaying those icons temporarily go against the idea itself of quicknotes: they should be there to help me get the card's type immediately. If I have to click something to see that, I could just hover the mouse on the card and look at the scan. On/Off switches in the options are the best approach.

I wouldn't suggest icons for special abilities:

1) There are creatures that can gain those abilities in certain situations only (very hard to code, would need rule enforcement for sure)

2) There are new abilities almost in every new set.. too many icons needed

Took a look at the new build:

1) I can see the library's top card if I put my mouse over it, just like it was a face-up card

2) tapping card is done by a counter-clock wise movement. Maybe it's just me.. but don't people do that with clock wise movements? I think most right-handed ones do. It may be ridiculous, but the counter clock wise movement seems "odd" ;)

3) If I iconize the window, or put it behind another application, it takes 1-2 seconds for it to display again when I take it to the front again: the window's border paints immediately, but the inner graphic takes a bit. It's absolutely acceptable, but it's not very nice to see anyway.

4) "Move to" option on cards does not work, probably just unfinished yet. I suggest to put an "exile" pile next to the grave btw.

EDIT: noticed this warning in the log file:
Warning: QtOpenGL: Resources are still available at program shutdown.
This is possibly caused by a leaked QGLWidget,
QGLFramebufferObject or QGLPixelBuffer.

>tapping card is done by a counter-clock wise movement.

This way tapped card has name on left and p/t on right, it's simple to read, especially p/t. Also if tapped cards overlaps each other, name on left is better.
If I tap it on other side, for me it's not comfortly to read.
See example:
http://virtualplaytable.com/download/vpt04preview2a.png (clock wise)
http://virtualplaytable.com/download/vpt04preview2b.png (counter-clock wise)

Are you left handed? ;)

I'd say the opposite, actually. And I think most people play MtG tapping cards clockwise. An option for that would be overkill?

> Are you left handed?

No, I have two right hands :)

Better than having two left feet :) http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/two_left_feet

I would say that the counter-clockwise looks better, it feels more normal to look at :)

> Are you left handed? ;)

By the way, if you tap card with your right hand - for me it is intuitive to rotate hand (and card) counter-clock wise (thumb is moved in direction of my body)

> If I iconize the window, or put it behind another application, it takes 1-2 seconds for it to display again

Fixed, I have made some graphics optimizations

I personally put my index and middle finger on a card (with a slight angle through the bottom right corner), and flex the middle one, tapping clock wise.. and I think most of the people I know do the same :D ..but people in my zone aside, even the official MTGO taps cards this way ;)

> I personally put my index and middle finger on a card

It is difference: I use thumb and index finger for it. :)

i agree with the clock wise tapping

The tap symbol on cards displays a clockwise movement too ;P

But tapping issues aside, I've thought about a thing regarding draft you should think about..

MWS used the deck security code to certify a deck list wasn't tampered with. That code also considered which cards where in the side and which in the main (and sets too.. which was probably not needed)


I was thinking that at the end of the draft, you could send the decks' codes to all the participants, but that wouldn't be useful, as decks are still subject to the player's modification after all draft rounds have finished: people will choose what to run in the main and what to run in the side, and how many additional lands to run.

I think that, together with the usual security code (which is needed for constructed play), you should provide a sort of "card pool code" which just considered the cards, despite them being main or side, and not considering any basic land.

This way after a player sets up his deck and plays against me, I can verify the card pool code hasn't change and he isn't cheating.

The usual deck code can be given, together with the pool code, to the organizer (magicleague for example) so that they can:

- be sure the deck has been built with the cards provided

- make the deck code public so that player can be sure the deck isn't modified during the tournament

Ok, I set tap clockwise.

VPT save in deck file created with Sealed/Draft full cardpool info. You can save/load it to continue editing with limited cardpool. In Play deck list will be automatically checked with it's cardpool.
I can show securety code as "format deckcode" for constructed and "format deckcode/cardpoolcode" for limited.

Later I going to implement Match server, where you can create new draft and software will automatically register/check decks and post games results.
It will be via http protocol and source code will be available (I don't know PHP/Perl, so I will write it with Java (JSP))

----------------
My prototype things about Pwr/Tgh/Counters dialog (showed with Alt+Left Click on card and via context menu)
http://virtualplaytable.com/download/pwrtghdialog.png

So, how long until we can play it?

> So, how long until we can play it?

In my todo list:
> Pwr/Tgh/Counters dialog
> Create Token dialog
> Show Library/Graveyard/sideboard window
> Exile zone and cards autolayout on battleground and exile zone
> Implement all commands like card zone movements, roll dice, copy cards and etc.
> Connection code (it's partially finished, but not combined with game state yet) and create/join game dialog.

will the create/join game dialog be just like Workstation? If not, what do you intend to change?

First time it will be like Workstation.
All changes I will think and implement later.

Playtable looks very stable and is the begginings of what will be a really good client to play on as far as the GUI is concerned, though as Mal has stated, (Hi Mal, nice to see you again!), it does need a more modern look & some other features which I'm sure will come as VP matures.

So far, both the editor & playable look very promising. I am eager to see it grow.

I especially can't wait to draft with VP.

That, will be fun!

[spam] Hi Bog! Nice to see you again :) [/spam]

Whee - MWS family reunion! :)

I have high hopes for VPT - and even higher expectations (given I know ALL MWS bugs).

Yes, it's a MWS repatriation!

Great to see you too Planeswlk, old friend!

Hello guys!
I looked at the screenshots, and something upset me.
I don't like the little cards in hand and on the battlefield. I have a big 24' monitor and I don't want to look at cards through a microscope. This program doesn't even support a wide screen format! Why not make a nice big table, such as in DOTP 2012?
Also annoys me hideous blue background, and general interface as a whole, copied from primitive MWS :( Why the cards have square corners, in real life they are rounded, it looks nicer.
Please pay more attention to the aesthetic of the game.

May be on your 24' monitor DOTP 2012 is nice, but on my 19'' it's hard to every time scroll mouse to zoom up card and read it's name or cost. I think DOTP 2012 is not good example of fast and useful interface.
When I will buy 24' monitor may be I will try and think about bigger cards.
But in my first plans is to release something worked even with the little cards in hand and on the battlefield.

Is it much harder to implement something where every card/frame doesn't take a fixed length/width, and instead takes a pre-configured % of the VPT window, so that users with bigger monitors can benefit from that instead of being on the loss?

For example, now that I have a Full HD monitor, I find MWS cards to be actually a bit too little, while they were absolutely fine with my old one.

> Is it much harder to implement something where every card/frame doesn't take
> a fixed length/width, and instead takes a pre-configured % of the VPT window,
> so that users with bigger monitors can benefit from that instead of being on the loss?

It's qustion to me? I already calculate card size on table as % of VPT window size, and window automatically resized to about 95% of desktop size.
Card height is about 10 percent of window height: (1 card row for hand + about 3.5 rows for battlefield) x 2 players + turn panel size.

Yes it was :)

That choice seems the best one to me too.

New build: http://virtualplaytable.com/download/vpt04preview3.zip

Screenshot: http://virtualplaytable.com/download/vpt04preview3.png

+ Pwr/Tgh/Counters dialog
+ Create Token dialog (tokens rendering not implemented yet)
+ Show Library/Graveyard window
+ Manapool and Exile zone

Now almost all base features for game implemented.
I'm working on tuning context menu/shortcuts/commands/sounds and on network code.

All this improvement looks great!
I like the little symbols in the bottom left of abilities or types.. reminds me of MagMa's interface. Good stuff there.. :)

The way you've thought about handling the P/T values has potential, but we need to avoid too much confusion for the players

- Now that I can play with cards a bit more, I've noticed there's no way to select multiple cards at the same time, for example to move all of them to the graveyard

- The pop up to modify a card is nice, but I cannot modify multiple cards at the same time in this way, which makes using cards like "Crusade" so painful..

- I suggest some hotkeys for the most common operations, like add P/T (which could add/subtract from the "override" entry. This could also easily work to modify more cards at the same time, given they are already selected

- I'm not too strong with the P/T assignation layers.. they are one of the most complicate parts of MtG's rulebook. Cards like Humility and such really struggle with +1/+1 counters, end of turn effects, equipments and such. Are you sure your mechanism does follow the rules strictly? I doubt at least that it will work as it should when cards' timestamps come in. Example: Humility would be a "1/1 override", but the +2/2 from Sword of Fire and Ice (change +2/+2) should either be counted or not depending on the sword having been attached before or after the time Humility has been cast. Or just to say another thing: do P/T settings ability work before or after until end of turn effects and counters? All this part is quite a mess, watch out for it not being bugged

- Notes are partially/totally covered by coloured counters and +1/+1 counters

- The mana symbols printed on the cards in hand and all these counters/notes for cards in play should better be positioned lower down the card, so to cover the impossible-to-read-anyway card text, leaving the card pic more visible, to better recognize cards both in hand and play

- If I create a new custom token to the list such as "White Red Green Bear", the token's name doesn't fit the horizontal space.

- I cannot modify and entry of the token list. I need to delete it and insert it again. That's fine, but the interface "loads" a token data as I select it, making the user think he can. I would suggest an "update" option together with the "add" and "delete" ones

- Tokens: the Soldier entry has been mistakenly inserted as "Soilder"

- I can select the "add token" pop up menu from the "show library/graveyard" window as well. This works like I had clicked on the playground underneath the window

- Card order in those pop up windows is not totally clear. I noticed that it's left to right, but one could think it to be top to bottom. Maybe add some horizontal line splitters?

- I am unable to rearrange cards' order in the grave/deck. This of course should log into the chat

- There's no way to show the cards in those windows into an arranged view, for better picking single cards

- "Automatically shuffle when closing" option missing

- Remember to add a "Show top/bottom X cards" option as well to the library

- Mana icons are fine, but I would add a "spell count" icon too, for the storm mechanic

- Exile zone: where is it? I can send cards to it, but I can't see them or bring them back if I need to

Multiple cards selection works with Shift+Click, selection with mouse drag I will add.
Shortcuts for change P/T and multiple cards operations I will add too.
I know P/T assignation rules, they worked exactly as in my dialog: first all overriding effects, then+/- effects, then counter effects, then switch P/T
All other I will check and fix.

Nice to know that you double checked, but that option can't take into consideration timestamps, in cases where they are needed.

I'm glad I discovered this program and am more glad that it is currently being developed. It looks smooth and hopefully it'll end up being better than MWS. The only thing I noticed right away in the preview is that the card images took a second or two to preview and that double clicking the cards didn't automatically place them in the logical spots like MWS did. Even so I hope this comes along smoothly and I wish the developers luck.